Confession: I almost forgot to post today. I should be ashamed. Should be. But I'm not. You see, I gots my ARCs yesterday, and I'm still reeling. They're not pretty, just a plain blue cover with ordering information on it, but it's the first time I've seen Happy Hour in book form. To commemorate such an auspicious occasion, I'm running a little contest. I know I can part with at least one of these bad boys for my League readers, so just leave a comment after this post and I'll choose the winner at random. I'm gonna throw in a cover flat, just cuz I like the shiny. Good luck y'all. Now on to critique, and in lieu of a lecture on how to find a group, which is what I'd originally planned, I'll just tell you about my own search. Back when I was just tinkering around with words and writing short stories, the only people that read them were the very ones least likely to give me an honest critique; friends and family but never my wife, oddly enough, hers was always a critical eye--I think she knew I was serious before I did. My first step toward a professional review of my work was a fiction writing class at a local community college. I'd taken creative writing classes in the past but since then my life had taken a turn toward social services and stuck there for over a decade. The class itself turned out to be a critique group rather than any structured lesson. The professor was a career counselor the school had conned into filling a seat, as happens in smaller institutions. Luckily for me, their were quite a few good writers in the class, two of whom had published some shorts and poetry. The class taught me a lot about constructive criticism versus personal attack. This one woman--who rarely brought anything to share--would make a derogatory comment to the effect of: "That belongs in the trash can" or "you should have flushed that one down." Super helpful. I learned to disregard her, because the counselor/teacher never did a thing to keep the bitch in line. The others in the group were very precise in their critique and balanced the positive with the areas that needed work and suggestions for correcting them. Good peeps. And my writing improved during that time. But, as is the thing with classes, they end. I started searching on the internet, I dismissed the idea of online writing groups simply because I need the face to face (this can't be surprising, as my work was entirely interactive). I tried out a large writing group at our local Borders and was not happy. It seemed to be all about back-patting, heavy on the readings, slim on critique, plus there were thirty people there. Not for me. I became discouraged, and while there seemed to be groups at every major chain store, I was concerned that they'd all be the same. So I pulled out the old class email list, and made a suggestion. Let's meet up. I had three takers and we met at a local coffee shop. The owner's wife happened to be a mystery writer, she joined. Later, I took a workshop from the awesome Jessica Morrell, developmental editor extraordinaire, and met a couple of sci-fi fantasy writers. Our group is seven strong now. We meet weekly to call each other on our bullshit and offer awesome suggestions and drink coffee and take a little bit of the isolation out of this work. We're all genre writers but different enough to add something unusual to each other's fiction. I couldn't be happier, and we don't have any bashers. Well. Just that one time, and it was dealt with. I guess the moral is, it never hurts to ask. Check out your local bookstore groups, maybe you won't like it, but there might be someone you connect with. Recruit! Ask around, Craigslist is another resource, college writing departments, libraries. There's always online, too. I've met really great people since all this started and if things hadn't progressed with The South Sound Algonquins (that's us), then I would have certainly asked and offered to critique the interneters. |
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You bring up a good point on who to disregard. There are just certain critics in workshops or classes that you just need to tune out simply because they don't "get" your work, or worse, they're just vindictive assholes who own failings as a writer rear their ugly head in the form on shitty critiquing. The sooner you can get rid of them, the better, but until them, learn to tune them out!
I've had some success with people I've met through blogs. Reading their blogs gave me an idea of their writing style and personalities. I would like a more formal local group, but thus far haven't found a fit.
Great post. I just found a good crit partner online, so I consider myself lucky. I will continue checking around locally and see what I can scare up.
Braaaaaains darling! :D
I got incredibly lucky and met my critique partner/good friend CJ at the Fangs, Fur, and Fey hook contest. We clicked almost immediately and have provided each other with valuable advice, typo-spotting, and reality smacks. *grins*
Katy
Re writers' groups, another point to consider is that sometimes it's not about backslapping so much as it's the case that the members are too polite to say that they didn't like something. I'm doing a creative writing MA at the moment and it took about 6 weeks for people to settle down with each other enough to feel brave enough to say that they didn't think something worked and why (probably because, most of us are English ...). Now we all give each other pretty much line by line analysis of what works and why (which I think tends to get left out in critiques) and what doesn't work and why (which is much more common) and I think we all find it v. useful.
t-q
My first crit after discovering a crit circle online totally shocked me. I had never received any sort of crit or review outside of "oh this is great!"
Being able to ignore those attacks and 'grow a thick skin' is one of the most important things a writer can learn.
I know I have made valuable friends and crit partners online. I haven't found a group here locally(I live in bfe oklahoma) yet. I stress the yet. Honestly I never even considered starting one up...
Good post. Congrats on getting the ARC's. **drools**
Mind if I put your book info on my page?
My first crit after discovering a crit circle online totally shocked me. I had never received any sort of crit or review outside of "oh this is great!"
Being able to ignore those attacks and 'grow a thick skin' is one of the most important things a writer can learn.
I know I have made valuable friends and crit partners online. I haven't found a group here locally(I live in bfe oklahoma) yet. I stress the yet. Honestly I never even considered starting one up...
Good post. Congrats on getting the ARC's. **drools**
Mind if I put your book info on my page?
YAY on the box! That is so cool!
Growing a thick skin and learning how to shuffle through constructive critisism and plain bashing for the hell of it is a very challenging thing to do. Or was for me. Is. Was. something like that.
I never considered starting my own crit group here. hmmm....
I would love a small local group, but I live in the middle of nowhere and have to be satisfied with on-line partners. Luckily I met some like-minded people and we seem to work together very well.
I do think a bad crit partner is worse than no partner at all.
And yay, zombies and brains!
All of my critique groups have been online. I've never been in a face-to-face group. I'm now out of all my groups and sticking to just a few close writing friends whenever I need another pair of eyes. I just became overwhelmed with critiquing others' works, too.
Kelsey (Cocoskeeper)
Anton - Or confront them and give them some boundaries. We don't allow attacks in our group. We've had some newbies that needed schoolin'.
Jaye - It goes to show, some great people bloggin' out there.
Lisa - Congrats on the crit partner!
Katy - We don't usually do typos but it does help to have a second pair of eyes looking for those, since Word's dictionary is for shit, and all.
Tybalt - Good luck with that MA, hard work. Hard work.
Hey Dragon - Feel free to pimp my book wherever you like.
Jen - No doubt, a bad crit partner can be a horrible waste of time.
Grats!! Where's mine? :) heehee... Can't help myself.
Found myself an excellent crit partner. She was the brave soul and asked. :)
I'm very lucky with my crit group. We meet every other week and discuss each other's work.
I've tried to do on line groups, but they haven't been as lucky. Now I just ask for interested parties and send them chunks of the current novel.
Hmm, very proactive approach - get a critique group started if you can't find one you like. I have RANDOMLY been approached by people on the internet to read their work even though I say I don't write. I think a face-to-face group is one of the better things to do. Also - wow, that one woman sounded really rude, did you ever get her to stop that and say things constructively?
I used to belong to a couple of online crit groups. I left my main group after a year due to personality clashes (if you didn't think the main admin was God's gift to writing, you were either ignored or flamed). My experience soured me on online crit groups.
Eventually, we're going to get a group together locally. There are other writers in this area whose opinions I respect.
My first critique group was also a community college class. It had its moments and I learned some things, but when you have three hours and five or six manuscripts and twenty-five people to hear from, the critiques tend to be a tad shallow.
A few years later I got online and I've been involved with a few virtual crit groups. Some work and some don't -- you always have the issue of personality clashes or differing goals or whatever -- but on the whole I prefer them. I like being able to take my time when critiquing. I usually spend at least two or three hours on a chapter or a short story, and I've spent more than eight hours a couple of times; the five minutes or so you have to speak your piece in a realspace session just doesn't cut it. I like getting really thorough critiques (the kind I give) and it's hard enough to get someone willing to do that online. In person? Never happened, at least not in my experience. :/
About taking criticism, my thought has always been that if you can't take constructive criticism and say thank you and actually be thankful, then there's no point in joining a crit group. And if you can't shrug and ignore the idiots like that trash can woman, you'll never survive the slushpile, much less editor-directed revisions and edits. If a writer is just playing around, that's one thing. If they want to go pro, though, they need to act like it and it's never too early to start working on that adamantium hide.
Angie
My first critique group the published author was a bit of a guru and she'd come in and tell us really nasty stories about her husband's sexual activities with young goats.
It was hard to walk by her husband after those stories.
I want a book, too! It looks fantastic.
I've been fortunate to get in on the ground floor of a face-to-face group. Two girls from the class ahead of mine were putting together a crit group and they were kind enough to let me in.
The group's been meeting for over a year and a half now, and has expanded to five members. At this point, we've known each other well enough and long enough to be completely honest and to trust that all criticism, no matter how harsh, comes from a sincere desire to see the best story possible.
Probably due to the school we came out of, everyone else's aspirations are a little more literary than mine, but they're progressive enough to cut me some slack, and perfectly willing to discuss commercial appeal :-)
Yeah, I find critique groups to be very important. Not only do they provide useful feedback, but just as importantly (for me) they provide a deadline.
Sometimes I wish I could do Odyssey/TNEO more than once a year. My wife would kill me for it though.
Right now, I'm taking a Intro to Fiction course at the university I work at. I didn't get my stuff in on time for joining the MFA program, so I hopped into the only open fiction course. It's taught by my old academic advisor, and I've become an unoffical TA, providing tips on how to effectively critique that I learned at Odyssey.
Great advice, but I have a question...
What do you think is the proper level of 'friendliness' between critique partners is? Do you think if you become too close a friend with a critique partner, their ability to give you the hard facts suffers? Or, because you met in a 'working' relationship, that becomes the standing point and neither will have trouble telling the other that their characters fall flat on the page and what-not?
Congrats!! I will truthfully say that I am not a huge fan of zombies. But the cover art got my attention right away. I can't wait to get my hands on a copy. :)
Hi Kelsey - That's why I like the weekly meeting, we each bring our most heinous pages and crit them right there, no take home exams. I wouldn't have time to crit an entire manuscript. It just wouldn't happen.
Missy and Jenn - You guys are some of the lucky ones.
Janice - That woman dropped out of the class right after bringing her whoreanus fiction to the group. Believe you me she got what was coming to her.
April - Good call, if you don't respect them, what's the point, right?
Hi Angie - Whatever works for you, I'd agree that when a group becomes too large, it loses its effectiveness.
Who is scaried of a couple of stinky, rotten, bad teeth, brain eating zombies? Congrats on seeing you book in pre-publication form. Wishing you the best on release day.
Stupid blogger ate my post. So I'll just leave this here as an entry.
Great post!
I'm so glad I pimped The League to my writing group.
We started out meeting for NaNoWriMo write-ins. (no mocking please) But I think we are going to keep meeting up for crits and encouragement.
Everyone seems to mesh well personality wise and I don't think we'll be a bunch of back patters once we get giving crits.
The critique groups I've been in (I've only done them in college courses!) consisted of a lot of people telling me something "looked good", and getting their feelings hurt when I suggested that X should be changed but that Y was really great. Glad you were able to find a great group!
If you give me a cover flat, I will photograph it with my cat and turn it into... an urban fantasy cat macro! (There's a folder in my Facebook.) Anyway, my cat's not so much damned as doomed... he's had rotten teeth removed, and he's not even 5 years old! He's just a victim of crap genetics - such is the dangers of procreation.
Have a lovely day! :-)
that's awesome on getting your arc! many congrats!!! and put me down for a free copy contest! weeee!
I can't keep up with everybody. Thanks for swinging by, anyway.
Kaylayna had a question as to appropriate boundaries in the critique partnership. I really treat my group as co-workers, we chat about personal stuff occasionally but for the most part we are together for the purpose of promoting better writing through accountability.
This book looks and sounds awesome!!! I can't wait to read it!!! I'm definatly going to get this one!!!
It's important to always keep in mind where these critiques are coming from. If they are coming from someone who is angry at you, or who is a newbie write, or someone who themselves just seem to want a little encouragement then less importance should be put on their opinion. Crit groups are great for seeing if you're hit the mark you wanted, or if there is some glaring mistake, or even if you know something isn't right but you can't figure out what.
I've helped critique a writer friend of mine. I wasn't cut out for it. I'm too nice and not cut out to edit either.
Your first book sounds good as does this new one that you just got in ARC format.
I'll just say pretty please over here too!
(Salamet from LJ)
Regarding critique...I have been incredibly lucky in my critique partners, Jenn being one of them. I've been careful to only share with people whom I completely trust.
(salamet again)
I'm throwing my hat in for the contest!
Blogger ate my comment too :( My CP is my boyfriend and he's great -- not afraid of the consequences of telling me my work isn't up to par. Which is great because it means I can trust him. I have two other CPs who read big chunks for the bigger picture: is the story working, does it grab you, is motivation there. They found some pretty big stuff on my first book that I was like "duh! how did I miss that?!"
I was a memeber of Critters Critique for ages - very, very helpful bunch of critters.
Otherwise, critique partners come and go. It's hard to have a balanced crit partner relationship - they usually last for about two books then fizzle.
Luckily I have an editor who I can discuss ideas with - very helpful.
Congrats on getting the ARCs!!! I can't wait to read this one! I love the cover for HAPPY HOUR OF THE DAMNED and can't wait to get a copy of it in my hands! :)
I do not understand how anyone could be that boorish as to say nothing constructive in a critique group. Bleh.
Congrats on teh ARC, by the way!
When I was younger, I had no idea that books were edited/critiqued before being published. Imagine my outrage when someone dared to criticize a story I'd written! I blush to remember.
But now I see how useful talking about writing with like-minded people really is; they help you see your strengths and your weaknesses, as well as pointing out things/details you hadn't thought of. And they provide support to keep going on those days when you want to chuck it all and run away to the Himalayas, also incredibly important.
Good writing partners are like treasure - hard to find and more valuable than gold when you do find them.
And you just need a good core group - because anyone who is serious about writing needs and has a group of people like this. They also serve the important function of cheering you up when you're down and celebrating with you when you child gets published and arrives on your doorstep in a happy box (blanket) =^_^=
You are right that just because you're in a "writing group" doesn't mean that's the bunch of people for you. I can attest to that first hand. Also knowing how to critique is essential. There's a fine balance somewhere between "Sunshine up your um book" and "Your book sucks because I'm an insecure looser and it doesn't help me."
There are some good books out there on how to get into or set up your own group. Two I can recommend off hand are: "The Writing Group Book: Creating and Sustaining a Successful Writing Group" by Lisa Rosenthal and "Writing Alone, Writing Together" by Judy Reeves. I learned quite a lot from them. Right after I read them, I ended up finding an excellent group in Memphis. Now I actually have hope that one day I'll have a bouncing baby ARC on my doorstep.
CONGRATS again on your dream coming true!
Anne a/k/a ImaFyrebyrd on LJ
Crit groups can be good or bad, I've found. Glad you've got something that works for you :)
Create a group...I'd never thought of doing that. I live in one of the biggest cities in England, one of the biggest university towns - heck we have three uni's withing spitting distance - yet a crit group is bloody impossible to find unless you're a poet. If you're a poet there's a group on every corner. Write something that doesn't rhyme and you're on your own... *wonders off thinking about starting up a crit group*
Personally, I haven't had much luck finding a critique group around me. Probably doesn't help I'm so far from a relatively large city. I was a member of an online one for a while, but they had rules for 3 critiques for every 1 posting, which I followed, but people stopped commenting on my stuff and I realized it was more of a 'critique my stuff, damn it' group than anything else.
But, I did get some really good stuff out of it while I was there. So, it must have been a good thing while it lasted.
Wonderful post. I have been looking for a critique partner or partners and appreciate the advice.
Thanks!
Yay for receiving your ARCS!
my hat is being tossed into the ring as well, i do look forward to reading this one.
[lie]as far as critiques go, every word that flows from my fingertips is brilliant and utterly perfect[/lie]